How to Turn an Agnostic into a Believer

Dear Reader,

I am a devout agnostic. I have been carrying on an electronic conversation with a devout Christian, in fact an evangelist, for about two years. It was not my intention to challenge her faith, but rather to seek answers to questions that underlie my agnosticism.

This is not the first time I have entered into such a conversation with a devout Christian. However, it is the first time that it hasn’t gone to the point where my interlocutor has said, “Believe what I say because I say it. I’m in touch with God and apparently you aren’t.” This time, each question has been greeted by a reasoned, heat-felt attempt at an answer, which only led to more questions.

Because of her civility and sincere attempt to enlighten me, I have come to think of this gentle lady as a friend.

About six months ago I asked her a number of questions based on her answers to previous questions. I felt these questions finally brought us to the crux of our reasons for believing and not believing. If she could supply satisfactory answers, I would be constrained to reconsider my skepticism and look at religions (Christianity and others) in a more accepting light.

Unfortunately, over the past half-year she has not responded to these questions. I know that proselytizing me is not n° 1 on her priority list: in fact I know that her priority list has dramatically changed over the past half-year. Since I am about to mark my 69th birthday, I am becoming somewhat concerned about the passage of time. My friend’s charged schedule may eventually allow her to respond to these crux questions. However, while waiting I would like to open the discussion to a broader audience.

Below you can read our last exchange, dating from June 2. It has been slightly edited to put the exchange into the context of our two-year conversation. If you are a true believer in Christianity or any other religion, I would very much appreciate your comments on these crux questions. If you are an agnostic or atheist, I would ask you to refrain from commenting. The purpose of this posting is to try to understand true believers, not to be comforted by non-believers.

Thank you for your understanding.

Philip Yaffe
Brussels, Belgium

June 2, 2011

Dear Friend,

Our dialogue continues, and happily so. I think the best way to reply to your posting of May 30 so that other readers who might be following the discussion is to copy the posting and insert my responses where appropriate. So here goes.

Phil

Posting: May 30, 2011, with responses by PY

Hi Phil,

I reread all of your comments and again, appreciate our friendship.

I said Earth was made for man, but not specifically the whole universe, which was your question. The Bible does not tell us the universe was made for man, but it does say the Earth was, so no contradiction. Maybe it will all play a part some day, maybe not. But this is an irrelevant issue in the grand scheme of what we are talking about.

My point in sharing about the positioning of the sun and Earth is to share about God's order and that nothing is by accident or coincidence in terms of Creation. Science is not my subject, I would highly suggest going to Answers in Genesis dot com or The Creation Research Institute dot com to answer your biblical questions on science and the biblical creation. My faith is not based on that stuff, though I realize it is a stumbling block for many

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PY: Let’s start with something we can agree on. I have no quarrel with the idea that the universe has order. I am a mathematician and a physicist. If I didn’t believe in order in the universe, I would be something else. Whether or not this order demonstrates the existence of a god (or gods, as some religions prefer) is a different matter.

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Regarding your comment about eating a pie you have been warned is laced with arsenic. You would not eat it. This is exactly what the Bible is, a warning. It is telling us point blankly that we are sinners and the only way to restore ourselves to God is through faith in his son.

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PY: Of course the Bible is a warning, as are the holy scriptures of many other religions. But my question concerned free will. You seem to be saying that even if people know and understand God’s message for certain (not just a warning), many still defy it “because the heart of man is wicked.” This is where I have a problem, which is the source of the pie analogy. If I am only warned that the pie is laced with arsenic, then I may or may not believe it. If I believe the warning (I have no doubts that it is poisoned), I certainly would not eat it. If I don’t fully believe it, I may or may not eat it depending on the degree of my doubt.

To put it in biblical terms, if someone defies God, thereby putting him on the road to eternal damnation, I see only two plausible explanations:
1. He truly does not believe that he is defying God, in which case his condemnation would be for ignorance, not arrogance or sin.
2. He is not in his right mind, in which case his condemnation would be for mental incompetence, which also is not arrogance or sin.

Are there any other possibilities?

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The very fact that you have done a thing or two wrong in your life and have felt guilty about it is evidence that you have a conscience. What you choose to do with that is your choice. Some people do not do anything about those guilt feelings and continue to sin more and more until their hearts are so hard, they don't feel the guilt any longer. That is what Romans talks about. Like I mentioned early on, God did not create robots.

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PY: If people knowingly sin, knowing what the consequences will be, I agree that God did not create robots. But it would seem that He did create lunatics.

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Regarding this commentary you shared about the purpose of creation being to worship God. I am not sure where that came from, but I don't agree.

True, I believe that God is to be worshiped, but I believe his nature commands it, not demands it. (Though He does teach not to worship false and non-existent Gods.) It angers Him because he knows His people are led astray by it and these so-called gods cannot do anything for the people.) And also, I don't believe that we were created for the sole purpose of worshiping God. The Bible makes it clear we have many purposes.

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PY: What are these purposes? Can you cite the biblical verses that specify them?

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We were given brains, personalities, likes and dislikes, we have order. I think what we have on Earth is a glimpse of God's full purpose for us in eternity. We are taught of the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth when things will be restored to what it should have been before sin. This means we will be living, learning, and enjoying, just like today, but sin and evil will not rule like it does today. Jesus said He gave us life that we would have it abundantly. I cannot answer fully what it will be like when we are with God in the New Jerusalem, but from the inkling we get in Revelation and throughout the Bible, I know it is going to revolve around much more than laying prostrate on the ground 24 hours a day, though I do believe that is a big part of it, but like I said out of gratitude. Not like some big God in the sky who rings the bell when its time to stop, drop and worship. I don't mean to take away from the importance of worship, but I just don't think the Bible teaches that's all we were created for.

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PY: What does the Bible teach that we were created for? And is eternal damnation a just punishment for failing to fulfill these purposes?

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I think if you seriously walked though the Bible with the open thought that it might be true, and look for all the connections between the old and new testaments, you might see how many millions of people have come to believe it as truth. Even if you don't accept it yourself, at least you would have a better understanding. Once again, I invite you to follow the book of John bible study, read along and look at all the correlating passages of Scripture that bring to light the evidence I have tried to share with you. The words in Scripture could speak more graciously and thoroughly than I ever could or will.

As always, Phil, God knows each of our hearts and knows if we are being stubborn to what He is speaking or if we are completely mentally unable to comprehend right and wrong. He will be the judge. But I believe with all of your inquiries and studies over the years, you are quite capable of understanding sin.

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PY: To be able to understand sin, one must first believe that there is a God who has defined sin and its consequences. This is where the problem lies. I am still an unbeliever because there are so many religions that compete for this role. Since I don’t know which one to choose, I choose none of them. This doesn’t mean that I have no moral code. I live by the only moral code that doubt makes tenable: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. For me, the only credible definition of sin would be violation of this clear, unequivocal precept.